Curse

ashes · Dec 31, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Hi

I was wondering how to get the most out of CoP and this is what i came up with.

Is it any good, and is it even worth running?

Thanks for your time.

/Ash

Betrayer of Wind · Dec 31, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

that build relys too much on the 10% skill recharge of air of superiority,plus too much energy intensive,you could mix auspicious incantation and use it with echo.on the other slot you could use EBSoW to try to max out the recharge times on CoP.As for the equipment,a 20%HSR/20%HCT and a defensive or fortitude mod staff would be the best choices.

Chthon · Dec 31, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

If you want to maximize the effectiveness of CoP, try this build.

Luminarus · Dec 31, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Assassins promise is a better option imo.

kostolomac · Dec 31, 2008, 11:08 AM // 11:08

1. Better hex for CoP , Ether nightmare has a too long casting time and energy cost. Find a low energy, fast recharging hex , like Mind Wrack.
2. AP is a lot better than any other elite in CoP builds.
3. If you put AP on your bar , the norn pve skill "Finish Him!" is also recommended.

The build I run is [build=AP CoP spam;OQdUAQhOQvSLQxA2gbAmOpixkxNA]
Or if you want pure CoP damage use Chthon's build.

cerick · Dec 31, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

This post has reminded me of a question that has bugged me for months. I have done more than my share of VSF runs as an ele cryer, and I have seen many builds for every class. And one thing that has always bugged me is the majority of people insistence on using nearly useless hexes as CoP damage initiators. The most popular by far, imo, is Mind Wrack.

Let me explain my question. First off I just want to say I totally realize that most Cryer builds almost by default have energy issues. Of which I have gotten around pretty easily with my ele. Regardless of that, I totally see the appeal of long lasting cheap hexes like Mind Wrack. But let’s say, just for comparison sake, you used Frustration instead. Frustration does 41 extra points of damage for each interrupt, and lasts 17 seconds. With a few other cyers in the group this tons of extra damage. Compared this to Mind Wrack which will most likely result in no extra damage at all. And as far as energy, the extra 5 points Frustration costs seems well worth it. Because if it is taking longer than 17 seconds to bring down a target, your group has some serious issues.

In my book, if CoP was the bread. Frustration would be the butter. But maybe it’s just me.

kostolomac · Dec 31, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Yeah , frustration is good for that , but it has a 15 sec recharge and if it gets removed I'm going to stand and do nothing 'till it recharges. Thats why I prefer short recharge hexes when going with h/h , but I guess frustration can be good in a group setting if there is a cover mesmer hex.

MegaVolti · Jan 01, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

But with [[Assassin's Promise] the recharge of [[Frustration] shouldn't be an issue. In case your AP doesn't trigger you are screwed anyway.

daze · Jan 01, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

But with [[Assassin's Promise] the recharge of [[Frustration] shouldn't be an issue. In case your AP doesn't trigger you are screwed anyway.

you can always [assassins promise][frustration][clumsiness][arcane echo][cry of pain][finish him][air of superiority][ether signet] for a 10% chance of being unscrewed. But in reality, unless your enemy mob has some sick monks, your CoP build should have ZERO problem dispatching anybody.

Chthon · Jan 01, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerick

This post has reminded me of a question that has bugged me for months. I have done more than my share of VSF runs as an ele cryer, and I have seen many builds for every class. And one thing that has always bugged me is the majority of people insistence on using nearly useless hexes as CoP damage initiators. The most popular by far, imo, is Mind Wrack.

If you're running a CoP build properly (or, in the case of a cryway team build, even a bad build badly), your target is going to die so rapidly that the actual effect of your proc hex is going to be minimal, no matter what it does. With that in mind, the criteria for picking your proc hex should be energy cost and casting speed. Fragility and Mind Wrack lead the pack as the only 5e, 1sec cast options. At least for standalone builds, I prefer fragility for the synergy with Finish Him (if the target survives long enough), which in turn synergizes with AP. Mind Wrack is second. If you're willing to come up to 10e, my third choice is Web of Disruption -- 1/4 cast, interrupt utility, and no attribute points required to work at full power. Frustration is maybe fourth or fifth.

In any event, Ether Nightmare is the unquestionably worst proc hex for CoP in common usage. It's got a three second cast. A. Three. Second. Cast. Just to add insult to injury, it's also 15e; the supposed benefit -- AoE hexing that leaves you some pre-hexed targets when you finish with your current target -- is often negated by the fact that CoP kills everything in the same AoE radius; and the effect -- degen -- is only effective if it has time to run its course, exactly the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish with CoP's quick direct damage.

MegaVolti · Jan 02, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

The thing about [[Cry of Pain] is that while it is awesome for spike builds (cryway team), on it's own it's just not that strong. 100 AoE damage every 12 seconds, that's about 8 dps. The radius is great but for normal play it usually is just one skill among many and too weak on it's own. It only gets really strong when you get 8 of them (4 cryer + echo) to kill a whole mob off at once so the recharge doesn't really matter anymore.
The only way to use it often enough to get more then the puny 8 dps (16 while [[arcane echo] is active) is [[Assassin's Promise]. That's why those builds are quite popular.
However, other "normal" damage dealing builds get over 100 single target dps ([[Discord] Necromancers, [[Spirit's Strength] Ritualist, gunner Rangers) or about 35 aoe dps. Not to mention the way bigger possibilities for indirect AoE damage ([[spiteful spirit], [[mark of pain]). So to be as effective as these you'd have to be able to cut [[Cry of Pain] average recharge time down to at most 3 seconds which even with [[Assassin's Promise] is very hard (in the more difficult areas in HM). And you'd have to hit at least 3 foes all the time, else the single target builds would be better (which is often possible in PvE - but far from always).

In short: Focusing the whole build around [[Cry of Pain] will work, as almost anything works in PvE somehow. But there are better things to do.

Chthon · Jan 02, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

In short: Focusing the whole build around [[Cry of Pain] will work, as almost anything works in PvE somehow. But there are better things to do.

As usual, you are dead wrong. In fact, this borders on being one of the dumbest things ever said on Guru.

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[O]ther "normal" damage dealing builds get over 100 single target dps ([[Discord] Necromancers,

Single-target damage is single-target damage, and that's why it sucks. Even if you're insta-killing each target, it's still slower overall than effective use of leveraged damage (of which AoE is the most prevalent form).

That's why Discordway is thoroughly mediocre, no matter how clever you get with the rest of the build. Also, human players should be using Necrosis over Discord anyway.

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[[Spirit's Strength] Ritualist,

Is positively retarded for PvE. Caster armor + attack-based damage = fail.

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gunner Rangers)

I've never seen a ranger that could produce sustained DPS anywhere near 100DPS. R-Spike, yes? Sustained damage, no. Build please.

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or about 35 aoe dps.

Like what? elementalists? Channeling rits?
1. That's all armor-sensitive damage. You can't compare it directly to the armor-ignoring damage on CoP. After adjusting for HM (or even late-NM) armor, it's nowhere close to 35 DPS.
2. Nothing else has in-the-area range like CoP.

Splinter? At least it's armor-ignoring, but:
1. The only way you could get the uptime for reach that DPS figure would require not attacking often enough to reach that figure.
2. There's a world of difference between adjacent range and in-the-area-range.

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Not to mention the way bigger possibilities for indirect AoE damage ([[spiteful spirit]

SS is a very solid damage dealer, and one of my favorite skills, but its speed is severely limited because it relies on monster actions. Also, adjacent range.

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[[mark of pain]).

Paired with AP, MoP is insanely good. Assuming an adjacent-range cluster of foes and an appropriately physical-heavy team, it's an insta-kill for the whole cluster. Moloch's AP-MoP build is the only offensive caster build that I consider on-par with AP-AE-CoP. Which build kills a given mob faster depends on how prone the mob is to bunching to adjacent-range, and how good your team is at manipulating their AI to bunch and stay bunched.

A couple of other notes:

1. Why do all of the builds you post as "good" damage dealers look like popular Random Arena gimmick builds?

2. Your comments about how hard it is to get a decent rate of recharge with AP give me the impression that you need a lot of practice with AP and/or with teambuilds that don't suck. The problems you describe experiencing when you try to use AP builds aren't problems with AP; they're problems with you and your team.

kostolomac · Jan 03, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Why do you even bother explaining Chthon?
CoP spam (even without arcane echo)>most mesmer builds.

Chthon · Jan 03, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Why do you even bother explaining Chthon?
CoP spam (even without arcane echo)>most mesmer builds.

1. While MegaVolti may post some of the dumbest things known to man or beast, MegaVolti isn't dumb. Sometimes s/he makes useful or insightful posts (though certainly not on this topic). As long as someone shows some spark of intelligence and not-a-troll-ness, I'm willing to *try* to convince them to change their opinions.

2. Leaving something that's just dead wrong as the last word in a thread can mislead other readers who may assume the last word must be correct because it was not contested. I'd rather not have people going away from Guru mistakenly thinking that one of the two best damage skills in the game isn't worth making a build around.

Vazze · Jan 03, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

There are a bunch of things that I know differently. Discord DPS is like 38 (115/3), if you combine it with necrosis it goes up to 68 (205/3), and that is not counting the preparations. Rits have this fancy insignia which gives them +15 armor under weapon spell, together with a shield that's already 91 armor and there are ways to increase it further. I am just saying because poor Rits are really not good with channeling DPS... Actually, rangers (1s attack spam with asuran scan) can get as high as 100 DPS for a minute or so, sooner or later energy becomes a problem but it is fairly sustainable. Although that's gonna drop to ~70 against higher armor. MoP is overrated, it is very conditional in general play due to low radius (and other things).

Btw I liked the clumsiness spam build that you posted in other thread, I run something similar on my mes hero sometimes if I am bored with curse necro. But that's a support build, it is less than AP-CoP (a dedicated dps build) in terms of DPS. That is if AP triggers reliably. But mostly it does.

MegaVolti · Jan 04, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. As usual, you are dead wrong. In fact, this borders on being one of the dumbest things ever said on Guru.

2. Single-target damage is single-target damage, and that's why it sucks. Even if you're insta-killing each target, it's still slower overall than effective use of leveraged damage (of which AoE is the most prevalent form).

3. That's why Discordway is thoroughly mediocre, no matter how clever you get with the rest of the build. Also, human players should be using Necrosis over Discord anyway.

4. Is positively retarded for PvE. Caster armor + attack-based damage = fail.

5. I've never seen a ranger that could produce sustained DPS anywhere near 100DPS. R-Spike, yes? Sustained damage, no. Build please.

6. Like what? elementalists? Channeling rits? [...]

7. Splinter? At least it's armor-ignoring [...]

8. SS is a very solid damage dealer, and one of my favorite skills, but its speed is severely limited because it relies on monster actions. Also, adjacent range.

9. Paired with AP, MoP is insanely good. Assuming an adjacent-range cluster of foes and an appropriately physical-heavy team, it's an insta-kill for the whole cluster. Moloch's AP-MoP build is the only offensive caster build that I consider on-par with AP-AE-CoP. Which build kills a given mob faster depends on how prone the mob is to bunching to adjacent-range, and how good your team is at manipulating their AI to bunch and stay bunched.

[...]

10. Your comments about how hard it is to get a decent rate of recharge with AP give me the impression that you need a lot of practice with AP and/or with teambuilds that don't suck. The problems you describe experiencing when you try to use AP builds aren't problems with AP; they're problems with you and your team.

Inserted the numbers in the quote:

1. You manage to insult people on the internet. You are teh man! Your utter superiorness is crushing me.

2. What matters is the damage done to the enemy. It doesn't matter at all if it's single target or aoe as long as the overall damage is high. 50 aoe damage on average done on two enemies is just as good as 100 single target damage. So when your aoe build scores 33.3 aoe damage it is exactly as good as the 100 single target damage build (a little worse in fact for spiking monks) if you hit 3 enemies on average. So no, single target can not suck simply because it is single target. It can only suck because it results in less overall damage - which in many areas simply is not the case. In areas with small mob sizes, single target damage is superior. Simple math really ...

3. See the point above. It mostly depends on the area. Combined with [[mindbender] and [[necrosis], [[discord] is very strong. As long as mob sized are quite small of cause.

4. Retarded assumption due to lack of GW knowledge. +15 armor from insignia, shield, spear range. Works like a charm as long as the enchantments don't get removed. That's actually the weak spot of the build: Many areas have quite a lot of enchantment removal which makes it completely useless.

5. [[Marksman's Wager] + [[asuran scan ] + all those 1s and 1/2s attacks (the ones with the most damage obviously). Go with a hornbow. Not quite 100 DPS because I have a low asuran rank on my ranger, but close. Not that the build doesn't suck ... but 100 DPS is possible (at least as long as [[marksman's wager] is up).

6. See my Mesmer build that you already didn't like for no good reason in the other topic.

7. Yes, also works.

8. Agreed. Awesome skill. Adjacent range kind of sucks but since you can have 2-3 (with echo) active at the same time it's not that bad.

9. Yay, especially with AP one of the best skills in the game. Totally rocks.

10. As I said, it largely depends on what team you are in. I admit I don't have 100+ hours experience with AP and I may make more mistakes then somebody who uses it all the time. But using only heroes and henchmen without a Discord-spike I really don't believe that you can finish off the AP target 100% of the time. Henchmen often decide to not do any damage for a while and in many areas the enemy monks like to cast that [[word of healing] on the near-dead AP target. Yes, finishing off the AP target works 95% of the time. Maybe even 99%. But every now and then the screwup will happen, it is simply unavoidable.
Or are you really telling me that you never ever failed to finish off the AP target?

On top of that there is the possibility of hex removal. Problem with AP in a CoP build is that it can't be covered so you have quite a high risk of it being stripped.

Chthon · Jan 04, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

What matters is the damage done to the enemy. It doesn't matter at all if it's single target or aoe as long as the overall damage is high. 50 aoe damage on average done on two enemies is just as good as 100 single target damage. So when your aoe build scores 33.3 aoe damage it is exactly as good as the 100 single target damage build (a little worse in fact for spiking monks) if you hit 3 enemies on average. So no, single target can not suck simply because it is single target. It can only suck because it results in less overall damage - which in many areas simply is not the case. In areas with small mob sizes, single target damage is superior. Simple math really ...

Your point is correct, but the conclusion you draw from it is wrong. Single-target damage sucks because even the best it has to offer (and I'm willing to agree that Necrosis + Discord is quite possibly it) does not even come close to what you can do with properly leveraged (usually AoE) damage. (Except against very small mobs -- which should be the ones that you least need to focus your build around anyway.)

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+15 armor from insignia, shield, spear range.

1. Caster armor, plus 15AL, plus 8AL from a shield (or if you spec 9 for the full 16AL, which attribute are you shorting?) makes 78. That's not even in the same ballpark as a warrior (80 + 10 insignia + 16 shield = 106, 126 vs phys), or assassin (70 + 10 insignia + 25 critical agility = 105), or paragon (80 + 10 insignia + 16 shield = 106), and falls short of a dervish too (70 + 20 insignia = 90). You're kidding yourself if you think that's adequate survivability for close range.

2. Spears have no AoE skills and not even any multi-hit skills to leverage. Just a couple single-target skills with some OK +damage. If all you're getting out of spirit's strength is some +damage on spear chucking, your build fails. You might as well take a dragon slasher instead -- better single-target damage, SY!, knockdown, and better survivability.

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[[Marksman's Wager] + [[asuran scan ] + all those 1s and 1/2s attacks... Not that the build doesn't suck ...

If the build sucks (and I agree that it does), why even mention it?

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Yes, finishing off the AP target works 95% of the time. Maybe even 99%. But every now and then the screwup will happen, it is simply unavoidable.
Or are you really telling me that you never ever failed to finish off the AP target?

My error rate is small enough that I don't consider it a problem, and I've got bad ping, an old PC, and not the world's greatest reflexes.

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On top of that there is the possibility of hex removal. Problem with AP in a CoP build is that it can't be covered so you have quite a high risk of it being stripped.

If you're even considering the possibility of AP getting stripped, you are casting it way, way too early. Ideally you should be killing the target with Finish Him the instant AP goes from cast to aftercast.

MegaVolti · Jan 05, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

0. Your point is correct, but the conclusion you draw from it is wrong. Single-target damage sucks because even the best it has to offer (and I'm willing to agree that Necrosis + Discord is quite possibly it) does not even come close to what you can do with properly leveraged (usually AoE) damage. (Except against very small mobs -- which should be the ones that you least need to focus your build around anyway.)

1. Caster armor, plus 15AL, plus 8AL from a shield (or if you spec 9 for the full 16AL, which attribute are you shorting?) makes 78. That's not even in the same ballpark as a warrior (80 + 10 insignia + 16 shield = 106, 126 vs phys), or assassin (70 + 10 insignia + 25 critical agility = 105), or paragon (80 + 10 insignia + 16 shield = 106), and falls short of a dervish too (70 + 20 insignia = 90). You're kidding yourself if you think that's adequate survivability for close range.

2. Spears have no AoE skills and not even any multi-hit skills to leverage. Just a couple single-target skills with some OK +damage. If all you're getting out of spirit's strength is some +damage on spear chucking, your build fails. You might as well take a dragon slasher instead -- better single-target damage, SY!, knockdown, and better survivability.

3. If the build sucks (and I agree that it does), why even mention it?

4. My error rate is small enough that I don't consider it a problem, and I've got bad ping, an old PC, and not the world's greatest reflexes.

5. If you're even considering the possibility of AP getting stripped, you are casting it way, way too early. Ideally you should be killing the target with Finish Him the instant AP goes from cast to aftercast.

0. All Avalances and huge Mesa things. On top of that: Most of the time, even the CoP radius will be too small to hit all backliners and frontliners at the same time when playing with heroes and henchmen (kiting ftw). So if you got an average mob size of 6, 3 warriors, 1 monk, 1 ranger, 1 elemantalist or something like that, you will most of the time hit at most 3 enemies at once.
Yes, there are areas with clumped up foes and huge mob sizes - but there are also areas were CoP simply isn't that strong.

1. Correct. That's why I wouldn't go to melee range with it. But for spear range the armor is more then enough.

2. I think you didn't get my point. Spirit's Strength combined with spear attacks on a Ritualist. Armor is more then enough to stay alive at spear range. Average DPS is about as good as the Discord-Necromancer (a bit better against the master of damage because he has only AL60 and quite a bit of damage is not armor ignoring). Lacks the utility of a Discord-Necro but offers the same damage and we were talking about DPS here

3. Because you wanted a pure DPS Ranger build. Add in stuff like [[I am the strongest] or [[ebon battle standard of honor] and you will even get far more then 100 DPS. Damage is gud? By the way I didn't say that it sucks. I said that I am not saying that it not sucks. I simply haven't tested it in the field

At first glace it looks bad but at least on paper the DPS is quite amazing.

4+5. Cast it to early and it can get stripped / some evil WoH can screw it up. Cast it to late and the target is dead before you AP is on it, leaving you with skills on cooldown and nothing really to do (but at least you are not out for 45s

).
My problem with AP is that in normal (normal not as in NM but as is easy HM stuff) areas, my error rate is also close to 0%. It just always works and I can blast through all normal enemies. But I can do that with almost any build.
When stuff gets tough, somehow acidentally two mobs got aggro or there is just some bad boss that makes my heroes go nuts, that is when the AP errors pop up. In the very rare cases were stuff is not so easy in PvE, when enemies don't drop like flies, the AP build is weakest - leaving me even more vulnerable.
That's my main problem with any AP build and the reason I don't like them too much on any character (except Necromancer).

So if there is a possibility to get the same damage of the AP build in some other way, I'd say that other way is superior.

Chthon · Jan 05, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Most of the time, even the CoP radius will be too small to hit all backliners and frontliners at the same time when playing with heroes and henchmen (kiting ftw).

Work on your positioning skills and hero control. You should be able to keep the entire mob with CoP range for long enough to kill them. In the worst case, you should have no more then two groups to kill (melees and all others).

1. Correct. That's why I wouldn't go to melee range with it. But for spear range the armor is more then enough.

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Cast it to early and it can get stripped / some evil WoH can screw it up. Cast it to late and the target is dead before you AP is on it, leaving you with skills on cooldown and nothing really to do (but at least you are not out for 45s

).

Cast it early and you're a retard for casting too early.
Cast it late and, oh well, just pick a new target, AP, Finish Him. A quadruple-dose of CoP should leave more than enough possible targets with low hp.

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My problem with AP is that in normal (normal not as in NM but as is easy HM stuff) areas, my error rate is also close to 0%. It just always works and I can blast through all normal enemies. But I can do that with almost any build.
When stuff gets tough, somehow acidentally two mobs got aggro or there is just some bad boss that makes my heroes go nuts, that is when the AP errors pop up.

Sounds like you just need more practice. AP-AE-CoP shines most when you've got extra aggro because you've got that many more things you can hit with the AoE.

Vazze · Jan 05, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

AP eliminates skill recharge, and it lets you have insane e-management, but this comes at a price: it is not 100% certain. I saw mob casting hex removal while I was casting AP so many times it is not even funny (and no, I usually can't cancel casting, and even if I can, it wont register on the server in time). Sometimes they have this perfect timing, it gets removed in the instant it was applied. Interrupts on AP are also annoying, monks in slavers have mesmer interrupts for e-management, and they know how to use them. There is the situation when a healing hands or mark of prot lands on target and by the time you hit rend enchant on your hero, they are back at full HP. Or simply you take down a foe to 10% HP but nobody else is attacking your target (they are shut down/running around like headless chickens/etc), and you start wanding like a madman and call, but then DW gets removed, he is getting a heal, and you know you lost it.

I often use YMLD together with finish him but even then, sht happens, still it is worth it, and you get better with time.